press+-+interviews+-+Community+Action+July+2011

Phone interview/transcript with Dave Morris (HFRA Secretary) for an LSE student thesis.. July 2011
 * Residents associations and community activity **

//I: As I said, im interested in your experience of your group, you're part of the Haringey federation of residents associations right?// DM: Yes, Im the secretary

//I: And do you want to tell me a bit about that organisation?// DM: Theres 176 residents associations currently, that take up a range of issues. Some are strong, some weak, some cover a small area, some a larger one. Some have been going 60 years, some just a few months. So its a very diverse mix of associations.

//I: That must take in a lot of different types of organisation?// DM: Yeah, its any organisation based on a geographic area. SO some are based upon housing estates, there are about 40 that are based upon council housing estates, theres about another 15 or 20 that are based on housing associations. But the vast majority are neighbourhood based, whether its a street or whether its the whole ward, with potentially thousands of homes. For all of them, whatever they are, we've got an umbrella organisation for them all.

//I: How are they doing, if thats not too general a question?// DM: Well all as I say, all the associations are different. Some are very strong, have been going a long time, and they include lots of people and take on a whole rage of issues, others maybe just focus on one particular issue. Some produce newsletters, some dont, some have public meetings. Some are struggling, and only meet very occasionally. It really is very varied.

//I: Whats the difference between one that is doing well, or not?// DM: It can be a whole range of things. Doing well can be having a lot of members, it canbe getting a lot people to a meeting, it can taking on an issue successfully. For example, you might have an assoicaiton that might want to improve its area by planting trees in the street. That having been achieved, thats a tangible sucess. Other successes are less tangible, developing community spirit and so on. Some groups are successful because they take on a whole range of issues. I've just moved home, but my last area had a residents association which got a neglected alleyway cleaned up and better fencing put in, we got the council rubbish-dumping collections to improve. T was in it for about 5 or 6 years, we also had successfully campaigned for parking controls to protect the local residents, and supported local friends groups who were working for local park improvements. We had trees planted, we organised street parties once a year, though fairly small ones. Weve done a whole range of things.

There might be sub groups. So theres one particular residents group that has a book club, its just covers a street, where people come together and read on a regular basis. It can be a whole range of things really.

//I: SO is it your experience that the very active ones like that also attract members?// DM: Theres really no blueprint. Youd think its obvious that if you do a lot of activity it attracts a lot of people, but its not always the case. And any community based group can kind of run out of steam. Whats a success? You can get lots of people, but some groups are particularly succesful because they involve young people, which has always been a bit of a challenge for a residents association. And some are particularly succesful at organising a variety of diversity of people, and others not so. So its really, well, in some ways my starting point is that the fact that a group exists is a success, and the fact atht it can meet regularly and attract a certain level of people is a sucess. And then on top of that, if you can achieve specific ends, whether its a succesful campaign, you know maybe theres a proposed obnoxious husing development in your neighbourhood, and you successfully campaigned against it, or like I say you have traffic calming measures put in... these are kind of layers of success on top of the basics.

//I: Is there though a common characteristic between what you see as successful groups?// DM: I think, a major effect of an active residents association is to change the atmosphere for a neighbourhood, whether its a street or whether its twenty streets. If youve got an active group, over a period of time, your changing the atmosphere of an areas so that people are talking to each other more, they are well informed, they feel optimistic that things can be done. Even if theyre not involved themselves, the people that live in the area are aware that people in the area are coming together, reporting news to each other, speaking out, trying to improve things.

//I: So its partly about communication.// DM: About keeping people well informed. You know, if oyure doing newsletters, your e taking up issues and distributing information to the local homes, you might be runniogn noticeboards. Increasingly residents associations are getting noticeboards, usually it requires some sorts of funding, pots of money. So its all part of showing the local neighbourhood that people are empowering themselves and spreading infomration themselves.

//I: So whats usually the problem with the ones that are struggling?// DM: Well... (laughs), you know if I knew that.... everyones looking for the holy grail of how do you, what is the guarantee of success, what can you do to get out of the doldrums. Groups get stuck in the doldrums, they cant attract new people, or they get stuck on one particular issues, and they cant crack it. Its not particularly going anywhere.

//I: Do you have an example of a group that has happened to ?// DM: Well the ones that arent successful, they tend to just drift away from the radar screen. You hear about the groups that are active, the ones that come to meetings. Or you get feedback from, or hear information from the ones that are ususally the ones that get noticed. Some groups just quietly fade away. Its a tough question.

//I: It is. SO how do you support those groups that are struggling?// DM: Well I think the way we support them as a federation, is we try to spread positive thinking, taking up a wide range of issues, because some group might think, well theres nothing to do, theres occasional meetings but noones got much energy, so whats the point? But actually when you hear of, well this groups done this, and that groups done that, by federating, and consciously spreading positive ideas and encouragement, I think it overcomes isolation. It gives people ideas. Its shows, groups go up and down. You get through the bad patch. Sometimes you need to reinvent yourself.

But I think also, some activities, are linked to what might be locally available in terms of resources and public services. If theres resources around that you can get access to. Well its a double edged sword, because that can also mean that the groups can see paid official and think well let them get on with it, because the councils got lots of resources. But if theres a community centre thats well run, that you have access to, it might encourage you to get involved, and use the resources, and develop projects. Someone's maybe doing a local history project in the area thats funded, contacts your group, that maybe something that your group can take up, Im just thinking of lots of different examples. But thats sometimes dependent on there being a vibrant public sector.

And with the current heavy cuts to the public sector, sometimes people can get demoralised and think well whats the point, things are going backwards. A good example of that is friends groups of local parks. I've heavily involved in my local one for the last 10 years and my park is now undergoing a major regeneration. Theres about about 40 friends groups in Haringey, and about three thousand around the UK. I'm the chair of the London friends groups network, which has contacts with around 500 local groups. And most of them, 90% were formed in the last 10 years. And they were formed because green spaces were neglected. Having been through the cuts of the eightises and nineties, people said we have to do something about protecting our green spaces. And campaign for more resources. There were more resources available from 2000 on, but until a friends group was set up there wasnt anyone really pushing for improvements, and developing visions, and getting hands on about the whole subjct. Friends groups have turned a lot of green spaces around, really transformed the way that green spaces are, the profile, the way theyre managed, the vision for them, and managed to access quite a lot of capital funding to get playgrounds regenerated and so on. But now its a tough time for firends groups, because theyre having to increasingly again, battle to keep the management and maintenance levels. The challenge is to get through this new period of cuts. But in the 80s there were no community groups to do that, so the green spaces just went downhill really fast. Now we've got thousands of friends groups, about 4000 friends groups - and also probably about 15 thousand to 20 thousand residents associations in the Uk...

//I: And where are those number from?// DM: There's a national federation of the area forums of friends groups, which affiliate the local friends groups involving around 1,500 groups. I'm the vice chair. And that only covers less than half of the friends groups we think. With residents associations, just guaging the kind of amount of associations in comparison with friends groups, its about a multiple of four. And where theres effective federations you can tell that generally the number of residents associations is about that amount.

//I: Are there other federations that you know of in London as being particularly effective?// DM: Well there are, but of different character to ours. Ours is possibly the only inclusive one in London. In terms of residents associations, the federations and networks of them tend to be either council tenant federations, like in Camden theres a very strong federation with over a 150 groups, just of those based in council housing area and estates. And in addition to that there are other residents associations that are neighbourhood based, but theyre not part of the camden federation. And in other area, you might have a federation, or some other organisation, thats just based on non-council estate areas, and as far as I know in London, ours is the only federation that really includes all of the various kinds. A lot of boroughs dont have a federation. They have associations of all kinds, but they just dont link up. Really the calculation is a ball park for the whole country. I know the London picture reasonably well as I'm the Haringey delegate to the the London tenants federation meetings, and have links with the London forum of civic and amenity socieities.

//I: Yes there dont seem to be that many statistics about residents groups, they dont seem to be identified as being important as a distinct category.// DM: Thats interesting, because I would say that theyre probably the most popular organisations in the country. Because of the number of them as organisations, the amount of territory they cover, the amount of public support they get, within the area. I mean whos going to be against it? There might be one or two things theyre doing that you dont agree with, but generally theyre not controversial at all, everyone think they are the kind of group you need in a local area. So its interesting that theyre not taken much notice of. Its not something that political parties are interested in. And also, outside bodies cant really have any influence within a local association. Because if youre not in the area, youre not in the association. So you cant get involved. Theyre so normal, and so everywhere, they dont get noticed, which is fine. They do get noticed, I mean local councils will be very aware of residents associations, because often they are the major community bodies that the councils have to come into realtionship with, whether they are consulting or whether they are in conflict with the council, on various issues. Its not so much that they are unknown, its more that they are not taken seriously as a national presence.

//I: But theres a lot of people involved in similar work, voluntary community work, who dont seem to be aware of them//. DM: Well there may not be one in their area. If theres an active one, they should be aware of it. But not all residents associations are active, or really making themselves known to their community. But they should, if theyre leafleting, if they have the noticeboards, it pretty hard to miss.

//I: You talked a bit before about problems getting young people involved.// DM: Thats true, a lot of them, a lot of young people and vice versa, dont relate to their local residents associations. I dont know why actually. I think.... when youre young, school age or less, then your life is very bound up with school, with schooling and your family. And then when you get to a certain age, your horizons open up, and you start relating to a subculture, independently of your family. Maybe youre even fed up with the limitations that seems to bring. Then people as they get older, they start realising how important that community is, especially after they have kids. It does tend to be older people.

//I: Being involved in a residents group is quite a distinctly different thing from volunteering, do you think?// DM: Yes, its often an activity, a specific activity that attracts you, or you like. Or a kind of.... often volunteering involves hands on, practical stuff, whereas a residents association sepcifically can be about discussing things, and having meetings. Campaiging and lobbying. And if you want to see traffic calming in your street, you may have to write to the council, then attend a council meeting. I mean there are popular things, like street parties are very popular, because everyone can see physically if something positive is happening now, I'll walk out of my door and I'll get involved.

//I: But are there people who want that hands on stuff, and are maybe put off by the proceedings that there generally are in residents associations?// DM: I dont know, because people can bring things up at meetings, and say well why arent we doing this? And again, it depends on the group, and how flexible they are, and how open they are to new intitaitves and new people.

//I: But you'll know lots of people who dont do things through residents associations, but do a lot of stuff.// DM: Yes, of course, and there are a whole variety of ways people can express themselves. And I wouldnt pretend that a residents association is the answer to everyhting. I mean to me, a community is strong precisely if there is a lot of different informal things going on, informal networks, people talking to each other on street corners, people doing each others shopping, maybe you know some people cant stand meetings but theyll get out there and pick up litter or something. THe previous association I was involved with, two or three of us at the end of the street, we just tidied it up, planted some bulbs, and turned a space that was a bit of a dumping ground into a tiny community garden. But we didnt do that through the residents association, we did that because we lived opposite. And thats really good. If you have lots and lots of little micro things in the neighbourhood, where theres different kinds of interactions and initiatives, then you've got a healthy community. Residents associations are just a framework for helping to develop that kind of community spirit, without kind of strait jacketing it into specific structure.

//I: So how did you get involved with it in the first place, what was your motivation?// DM: Yeah its about empowerment. I want people to be collectively empowered to take control over their lives. So you might think how do we do that. You might think, OK let's organise trips for local kids to do kayaking for instance. Or go on loads of national demos. Theres lots of ways, it might be ok I'll join direct action environmental groups, who want to close down a particularly obnoxious polluting industry or whatever.

But for me, and ive been through quite a lot in my life over the last 35 years, ive been an activist and so on, I kind of had a bit of a realisation, that everybody in the world can be an activist in their own neighbourhood, very easily. Say for example you have the radical enviornmentalist movement, they do climate camps once a year, two or three thousand of us take oversome land and have a big protest. Even if youve got ten thousand people involved, its really very marginal, compared to if, in the UK theres 15 thousand resident associations, and theyve each got a core of between 5 and 15 people, we're talking about potentially, 80 thousand, 150 thousand people, active in their own communities on a regular basis. Plus, because of the kind of groups they are, its like dropping a pebble into a lake, they make ripples in their community. Its something everybody can be involved with, and have a big influence over millions of people. And you can take up specific issues that need to be addressed, its not just doing it for the sake of it. Its taking up real issues, whether its housing, or green spaces, or public services, or traffic calming, or planning controversies. But its something that if more and more got involved in, everybody could be collectively empowered.

I think for me, it was coming to the realisation that the community level is the key cockpit for where people can collectively empower each other and themselves, to make a real difference. In the long term, its about everybody in the world having control over their lives and the decision making that affects their lives. And obviously the community is a key, probably the key way in which that can move forward. A lot of people think political parties, but to me theyre very archaic and hierarchical, passive organisations, generally, political parties, geared around achieving power and voting for politicians and stuff like that. Whereas community level is about collective activity amongst equals. And its connected to peoples lives.

//I: And you can often see the difference it is making to peoples lives, to help people, which you cant often see with politics.// DM: And to help each other, spread mutual aid and solidarity and co-operation. Its a question of creating a different kind of dynamic. Its something which is accepted throughout the UK, and from what ive heard, in other countries. Theres something similar in most places. They may not call themselves residents associations. I think in Germany they have citizens intitatives, and in Argentina, during the economic crisis they had ten years ago, tens of thousands of neighbourhood associations were set up in a very short space of time, becasue people ahd to rely on their local communities to support each other, becasue the financial system had kind of crumbled. And in fact there were tens of thousands of barter clubs also set up, where people started swapping goods and services, becasue they didnt have the money to buy them, because of the circumstances they were in. So this is something that happened in a very short space of time. And the same sort of thing has happened in Egypt, some of the same support networks within local communities and neighbourhoods... people's committees. So its something that can develop very fast, in the right circumstances, when people realise how important it is.

//I: But theres maybe a difference between setting something up in a crisis, starting something new, and dealing with long established organisations that are already there, and already have an image in peoples minds as being not exciting, or new. It might make it easier even in some ways. Because you have a direct appeal to everyone.// DM: Yeah, and remember some of the work may just not be that sexy, it may be just be meeting, talking about things, producing regular newsletters. But I mean a lot of associations do respond to a crisis, its often a local crisis. OK, theres some obnoxious development that someone wants to build, everyones up in arms, and you call a meeting, and suddenly from the usual ten you get a hundred people. Ive certainly had that myself. For example I would personally avoid anything to do with parking issues, because to me its always an exaggerated concern personally. I always reccomend a new association, try to avoid getting dragged into parking issues, and also, litter. These are issues that you have to take up, but sometimes people just get obsessed with it, and theyre often unresolvable. With dumping you report it on a regular basis, but dont let it get you down, its just one of those facts of life, that theres litter and theres dumping. However in my area recently, we had a crisis about parking, and the residents associations coordinated a series of public meetings, which ten times as many people came to as came to the regular meetings. We responded pretty well and got it sorted out.

//I: So its almost about picking the right issues.// DM: Responding to when theres an immediate concern, and you can respond in an intelligent way.

//I: So its almost about, presenting it, doing it in a way that seems reasonable.// DM: Providing a forum for the community to come together, discuss and resolve an issue, whatever it is. And theres lots of examples around Harnigey of different issues that have suddenly galvanised a lot of people. And it may not neccessaraily take off, and the issues are addressed not through these established structures. So people might form an action group, a group of people might campaign around a planning issue. But then thats new energy, and residents associations get involved, or take a view about the subject, if the members are talking about the subject. It doesnt always have to come from the existing groups. But exisiting groups do have to relate to what the keys issues are, even if they come from outside.

//I: SO what are the particular challenges in Haringey, being such a diverse area, ethcnities and nationalities?// DM: Again, I think every single association has it different, in terms of the area that they cover, the size of it, the issues that they take up. We've already said that theres a tendency for it to be older people, at the core, I suppose because they are established in the area and so on. I mean my last association was very diverse in terms of the ethnic groups of the people who came to the regular meetings. But very very few people under 30 involved at all.

//I: So are they generally representative in terms of race, but not in terms of age?// DM: Well that particular group was, but the other groups maybe if they start off mainly say white people, sometimes its hard to broaden out, because its just seen as something that certain kinds of people get involved with. Thats the way it starts. Its maybe a chicken and egg situation. I think associations on council estates tend to be more diverse, partly because the estates are more diverse, but partly... I dont know what the reason is. I cant think of any that have particular projects that involved young people, I can think of one estate where one particular ethnic group got involved, and for a while that particular group is very strong in the organisation, rather than the whole community being represented. Theyll coordinate it within themselves. Because theyll get involved, and encourage their own contacts to get involved. But generally though, I think it is an issue for many associations, and for friends groups, and maybe fore other types of groups, that maybe theyre not as diverse as the community they represent and they need to put the effort in to try to improve on that. Its the same maybe for a parents group in a school or whatever. You have to make what you do accessible to all, but at the end of the day its up to everyone to decide yes or no if they want to get involved and how.

//I: But a residents group can say that at least one thing we all have in common that we live here.// DM: Exactly. Its not like you have to convince people that you have something in common. Its the same in the workplace, its the same with the labour movement. The labour movement despite all the efforts of government and employers to marginalise it and reduce it, theres still six million trade unionists in the UK. And theyre not just individual members, they have branch structures, shop stewards and meetings and so on. And.. inevitably though its the same issues, I used to be a branch secreatry in the post office for example, you always have a core of people who are actively involved, and a lot of others who just go along with it, so if you have a crisis, suddenly everyone is there. But everybodys in the same boat, in as much as they work in the same workplace, or the same industry. But it doesnt magically develop into everybody is involved equally. Noones really discovered the magical solution for that, how you can call a meeting and 100% of people in the neighbourhood turn up!

//I: It is important they are strong though, as they can do a lot of good.// DM: Yes. For me personally, taking my last residents association as an example, transformed the whole area. You talk to a few people before the association, almost always people say, 'oh well, people round here, they wont be interested, or their arent any issues'. And then you have a few meetings, and you discover theres lots of issues, theres lots of amazing people that youre not aware of unless you come together. Because people feel awkward about talking to other people in their streets. Because people think maybe they'll fall out with them. So people are polite, but they dont neccessaraily bond, unless theres some kind of mechanism where it becomes legitimised, it becomes normal. And I could see with my own eyes, when we formed our association, people started talking to each other. Not neccessarialy everybody, but I could go and knock on the doors and say, hi Im from the residents association, you start forming real relations with people. And if you get to know each other, and a few people in the street get to know each other, you can kind of spread that atmosphere to the rest of the street. And if theres a crisis or a problem, you dont all 'lets all go indoors and lock the door', the opposite. Somethings happening in the street, lets all come out. Whats going on? In my street there was someone running down the street with a machete, shouting. So everyone came out. Not like I dont want to know that, lock the door and bolt it, it was more like, you know, shit, what do we do?

So I think it can, in terms of psychology, social psychology, thats what its about, its all social psychology. Convincing people that supporting each other, and caring about your community and your neighbourhood and your life, its all a psychological thing. Its like, everyone in the world can do it, and they do do it. But they usually... I think theres the so called private sphere, where everybody's very very keyed up about their immediate realtionships in terms of their family, you know. Or it maybe other networks like their work colleagues. But the social sphere, at the community level, where there is a lot of potential... Its not difficult to persuade that they should support each other as neighbours and cooperate and share information and whatever. its just people are shy, or they feel like... you have to make it normal. You have to make it normal, to make it feel like something that everyone does. And by creating a residents group, youre making a statement this is normal. And I think that in society, if you want... its all about Social Psychology.

You know Bullying is something bad, put the word around that its not going to be tolerated, in school. You change the psychology, or you generate a psychology of what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. Or what is normal and what is not normal, in a positive sense. So I think in a way we have to do the same in other spheres, but it cant come from anyone really, except ourselves, as an organic, grass-roots, responsibility. And also there are certain basic principles that I think are really important in terms of the long term future of our society. About everybody being equal, about everybody being valued for who they are, not for what they wear, or what their job status is. But in a local neighbourhood, youre all equal. Its your character, that is the important thing, in a local area. Are you friendly? And also just about collective empowerment and decision-making, we're the people in this area so we should be making the decisions, or at least driving the decision making that affects our area. And you do that by asserting yourself about traffic or planning or whatevers gong on.

So youre generating a sort of different way of approaching society's issues different from the whole kind of top down, expert, politicians, do as youre told, be passive, be a consumer, which is the generally prevalent psychology, which is constantly being imposed and generated by those who have power and wealth and influence. They want to be seen as the important people. Whereas actually were all important people. Everyone's an expert, THE expert, about their own front door and their own life. So if we can assert that, street by street, and to some extent work place by workplace, and school by school with the parents groups.... By creating our own grassroots organisations, of a collective, egalitarian nature, youre also putting down a marker for basic human principles of cooperation and communication and collective decision making, youre trying to make that normal. So just as bullying as is something that is now not normal and not tolerated and everyone should be sharing and caring about each other at school, for me its trying to establish certain basic principles as to how society should actually be run all over. In contrast to the current principles which are basically care only about number one, competition, money, hierarchy, status. Which to me, should not be normal.

So that to me, is why I have put so much effort into developing strong residents associations and friends groups. Its about asserting certain basic human principles, and saying, actually these are the sort of principles that should be governing all the decision making in our society. Its a shame that we can only do it on a limited scale at the moment, but if we were all doing it, all over the world, I think then people will think why aren't we the ordinary people running the whole world? After all, with wars, hunger, climate change, dictatorships and whatnot, we could hardly make more of a mess of it than those currently doing it.